You will never defeat us!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I'm always surprised at the anti- ACLU comments- don't you all realize that the ACLU is the guardian of your-and everyones- Constitutional rights?

It's individual Americans who don't happen to belong to churches that political leaders favor.

If it were constitutional to mandate that all stores said "Merry Christmas" to their shoppers, Congress would do it in a heartbeat, because it's a rare district that doesn't have a majority of Christians in it.

This is absolutely not the world's hugest issue when it comes to church-state separation; but you might not altogether like it if, for example, every single restaurant closed for Ramadan between dawn and dusk.

As it is, restaurants catering to Muslims close between dawn and dusk for Ramadan; Chick-Fil-A, catering to a Christian audience, closes on Sundays; each business is free to ply its trade in the way it wants to with respect to these things.

So I don't see the big old deal with whether stores say "Merry Christmas" or not. I love Christmas, but I don't need everyone around me to endorse and affirm my beliefs about it too in order to enjoy it.

The United States was founded by those seeking freedom from religious persecution. Our constitution has no such term as "separation of church and state".

What exists is designed to ensure Freedom of Religion, and to prevent the government from persecuting religious belief.

There is nothing anywhere in our constitution, or any founding documents written to protect the state from the church.

The state needs little protection from any of us.

I don't mean to sound like a religious bigot... just a six-teen year old know-it-all. :) My family and I have gone through several catechism-type courses. I am well educated in politics and theology. Separation of church and state does not mean separation of God and state. It just means that the social institution, known as the church, should not merge with the state. This did indeed have disastrous consequences (like the dynasty of Catholicism prior to the Reformation).

If, however, you utterly separate church and state - you end up with politicians who have no morals whatsoever. Without the church you have no morality; without morality you are left with corruption, deception, and utter depravity. How's it working out so far?

They don't stand up for your faith, my painfully deluded friend. The ACLU has set itself against every principal of righteousness with its stand on NAMBLA and child pornography. I think that they have spoken on their position, and Christians are idiots if they can't see what the ACLU means.

The ACLU stands up for my christian freedoms. If you can't see that then I suggest attempting to educate yourself on this issue. Throughout history government entangling itself with religion has always had desatorious results. Thank god for someone like the ACLU to keep government out of my religion and vica versa.

I don't want to get into a long back-and-forth, J., but indulge my brief reply.

The cases and situations you cite are all instances where a public or government entity endeavored to endorse the Christian faith by posting Christian monuments (temporary or permanent) on public land. In the ACLU's view (and case law backs us up on this) that represents an endorsement of the specific religion and/or sect to which the monument or symbol is tied, and is therefore unconstitutional.

This is hard for many Christians to understand because Christian symbols are so common in American life, so I often ask people to imagine that instead of a creche, it was a Muslim crescent that was being displayed, or that instead of celebrating Christmas, your City Council declared that the city would all be observing and celebrating Ramadan. That usually makes it easier for Christians to see the problem - it's a government endorsement of one religion, that leaves people who don't practice that religion feeling disenfranchised or persecuted.

The ACLU in no way wants to limit the right of individuals and private religious institutions from practicing their religion or evangelizing freely. What the ACLU opposes are government efforts to do the same. It's the difference, for instance, between a church group mounting a creche on private property where anyone is free to say just about anything, and a township or city mounting a creche (or allowing only a creche to be displayed, and rejecting requests for other religious displays).

Look, if you feel that it is the place of the government to enforce Christianity or to commemorate the Christian faith as anything more than historically and culturally relevant, or to spread Christianity as a faith, then you are never going to agree with the ACLU. But if that is your feeling, then I'm going to tell you that you are running counter to the Constitution and everything on which this nation was founded. The US was founded by Christians, true, and Christian values are dominant in our history, but the most important value of all in the US was freedom, including the freedom of religion and freedom from religious oppression.

I would also point out that in at least one of the cases below, the first one you cite, the solicitor's interpretation of past cases is wrong. Private Christian groups have always been permitted to set up displays on public land, provided they really are PRIVATE groups and provided the same right is extended to other religious and secular groups. In the case in Tennessee, for instance, the ACLU has taken no issue with the church who installed the display. The issue is with the local government, which permitted the church display but refused to allow other groups access to the same space.

Your thoughts don't match reality, Chris.

In Pennsylvania -

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=172834

“Fearing they would run afoul of the ACLU, county officials in Pennsylvania pulled a Nativity display that had been on display in a public park for several weeks.

“Beaver County officials said the group that set up the display before Thanksgiving did not get permission, but if they had asked, they would have been rejected because the county soliciter has determined it violates the U.S. Constitution, the Beaver County Times reported.

“County commissioners chairman, Dan Donatella, stated the commissioners disagree with the interpretation but are obligated to obey it, citing two previous instances in which the ACLU has threatened lawsuits over crèches”

In Montana –

http://www.democracysghosts.com/religion/public/16298prs20001012.html\

“BILLINGS, MT--The American Civil Liberties Union today announced a settlement in its lawsuit against Custer County officials over the display of religious symbols on government property.

“Under the settlement, which resolves an ACLU lawsuit filed last December 1999, a Ten Commandments monument will be moved from a prominent place on the courthouse grounds and a seasonal nativity scene will be removed from county property.”


In Tennessee -

http://www.topix.com/news/aclu/2009/11/tenn-pastor-says-church-will-present-nativity-scene-despite-objections-from-aclu

“Tenn. pastor says church will present nativity scene despite objections from ACLU

“A Tennessee pastor says his congregation will present its nativity scene in Clarksville despite objections from the American Civil Liberties Union. “

ACLU takes issue with Christmas on the cumberland display

In Florida -

“Group says nativity display is endorsement of Christianity

“By JAKE LOWARY • The
Leaf-Chronicle • November 21, 2009

“The American Civil Liberties Union on Nov. 11. sent at letter to the City Attorney Lance Baker telling him of the issues the group has with its Christmas on the Cumberland display, particularly a nativity scene sponsored by Grace Church of the Nazarene.”

And on and on and on….

“The ACLU - Their War Against Christmas and You

(http://ezinearticles.com/?The-ACLU---Their-War-Against-Christmas-and-You&id=114474)”

“IS CHRISTMAS FACING A DEATH SENTENCE? ACLU Leads the Fight for Execution

http://www.sullivan-county.com/wcva/jl10.htm

ACLU LAWSUITS ON RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS -

http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/news-christmas.html

Chris – You’re very confused.

This list of attacks against from the ACLU against Christianity, expression of Christian belief, and any fundamental expression of Freedom of Religion by a Christian are too numerous to even document.

If you are a Christian, you might want to ask yourself if you’re serving God or the ACLU?
And if that matters.

If you are a Christian, you might consider prayerfully giving more weight to the word of Christ than to the bylaws of the ACLU.

Mark 8:38 - "For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels."

God Bless You -

Just a quick note from an ACLU employee and member (speaking for myself, not for the organization as a whole).

As a point of fact, the ACLU has never threatened a private store with any lawsuit, boycott, or any other action for saying "Merry Christmas." The ACLU does not involve itself with private enterprise, we solely involve ourselves in public ("government") affairs.

You certainly have the right to dislike what the ACLU does. A big part of our mission is opposing efforts to use the government as a means to spread religion - whether this means forced prayers in public schools, monuments to one specific religion (ie, the Ten Commandments or a crucifix) on government property, or government Christmas celebrations that focus on the faith-specific aspects of the holiday. This is an effort to protect the religious liberty of all, including Christians, and not an effort to deny anyone their right to religious expression.

A few other things the ACLU has never done: we've never fought to remove crucifixes from the headstones in military graveyards, and we've never tried to prevent soldiers from praying. These are also common urban legends with no basis in fact.

Also, I'll take a moment to point out that I personally celebrate Christmas, and that I wish others a Merry Christmas - unless I don't know whether they celebrate that particular holiday, in which case I say "Happy Holidays" because I like to be inclusive.

As I said, you have every right to dislike what the ACLU does. I happen to believe we are protecting you as much as anyone, but you can disagree. I'd just appreciate if you would not spread falsehoods about what the organization has done.

Thanks, and have a Merry Christmas.